followed by "I guess you were too busy not changing anything to attend a Save the Children concert."
and provides us with this link: www.examiner.com
these are bits & pieces of the discussion that ensued (my name in orange):
Thomas Cawson: Think he's going to blow the $10m on J.Crew gift vouchers for Michelle?
John Zayac: Perhaps he could use the $10million prize to help defray the costs of shipping 30k more troops to the mountains of Afghanistan.
Jamie Ramirez: geez, john, why such a hater? i followed that link, and it's a sloppy piece of writing by some guy that's not even a journalist. he's not allowed to say "norwegians are not happy" without citing any specific comments or at least a the results of a valid poll. he also provides no background information about the lunch decline. no reason why? obama just *felt* like upsetting them? i seriously doubt it. he knows what's bad for his public image as much as the next politician, and wouldn't have done it without at least some sort of justification. give the guy a break. he has to clean up all kinds of mess. why he's ignoring us queers, i am not entirely sure. that's inexcusable, to be sure. but that's a different issue.
Thomas Cawson:
news.bbc.co.ukSome slightly more credible journalism pointing out how rude and arrogant Norwegians (and surely most people with any sense of courtesy), think it is to snub a lunch with the King of the host country presenting Barack Obama one of the highest International honours attainable - an honour which was entirely undeserved in the first place. I really don't think pointing out such highlighting such tactlessness makes anyone a 'hater', or whatever that means.
Moe Darbandi: Where Are you guys getting 10mil? It's 1.4 mil and he already stated he's donating all of it to charity.
Jamie Ramirez: just to clarify: john's last two posts were calling obama "obummer" and "o-bush-a", so i think two name callings constitutes hatin' -- of course i use the word in the spirit of the second definition of "hater" found in the urban dictionary:
2. hater:
Overused word that people like to use just because someone else expresses a dislike for a certain individual.
PERSON 1: I don't like Beyonce's new song.
PERSON 2: You're a hater!!!
in fact, i can't even use the word without picturing adorable, misguided riley from boondocks. regina king did such a stellar job with their voices during its two-season run as an animated series on adult swim.
i think i have a very common post-...-post-modern casual adoption of phrases from popular culture, where you're halfway embracing the undeniable utility of all the built-in connotation and half making fun of it for being cheesy. i'm as disappointed as the next person about the demise of meaningful and unambiguous use of language (you know, using a shared grammar and spelling so people can understand one another). but if we want to get really academic about it, it's easily construed as racist (&/or classist, being that the two are so intertwined) to shun the vernacular of a particular subset of the black community, which is where (correct me if i'm wrong) most people see the current use of "hater" to be most popular, and perhaps to have originated.
i respect that you disagree with the selection of obama for the nobel peace prize, but after listening to the larry mantle segment on NPR about it, where he interviewed knowledgeable parties such as past recipients and past or present members of the deciding committee, i was convinced it wasn't an unprecedented choice, to give someone the prize as "encouragement" and to use the prize as a message to the world that this is someone to believe in. it helps to legitimate obama in a way, and although i believe the effort may have backfired, if it could play a role in getting him re-elected so that we wouldn't get another greedy, war-hungry, human-rights-disrespecting president so soon after we got a glimpse of * hope * (hehe, couldn't resist), the prize would, in fact, promote peace. if you were on the committee, and you had to choose between (a) actually promoting greater peace in this world while possibly stretching the rules or compromising the reputation of the award and (b) giving a more traditional award to someone who doesn't have the capacity to create such a change in the state of world peace, it might be a more difficult decision than you think, so readily calling it "entirely undeserved".
but thanks for the bcc link. it was a lot more specific, which i appreciate, even if the poll they cite comes from a tabloid.
John Zayac: The 10 million is in Swedish kronor. I krona = 0.14 usd. Using that conversion the prize is 1.4 million USD. Sorry Moe, I stand corrected... On a brighter note, how the he'll are you, old friend?
Amy Nelson (my wife): i think an important point that no one has mentioned is that obama would have had to spend three days in norway to attend all of the events. that's a hell of a long time for the president to spend accepting an award w/ all the shit going on right now. he's a busy dude.
John Zayac: Hey everyone. Please don't take this personally. This is indeed meant to be inflammatory. I am tired of people not paying attention to what is happening, thinking that because Bush is out of office that things have changed. Nothing has changed... Regarding the Norwegians: it's not missing all the events they are upset about. It was the blowing off of the king's lunch and denying a press conference with the Norwegian press. There is a much longer explanation for why I don't like President Obama, and when i'm done writing these finals, I'll bust out a treatise on why I think Obama is actually Obummer.
John Zayac: Oh and Amy, has Obama had a vacation this year? Just sayin'...
Amy Nelson: vacation? huh? he's leaving to attend the global summit on climate change in copenhagen. and regardless of whether you think obama is really obummer, if you're seriously equating him to dubya, then to quote mj, "you're just being ignorant."
John Zayac: Funny you bring up Copenhagen. Here's a quick recap of delegates' reactions to Obama going to Copenhagen: http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/26/europe-casts-a-skeptical-eye-on-obamas-trip-to-copenhagen/
I called him Obusha to be inflammatory. He is not delivering change. As has been the case since the beginning of his campaign, there are promises of change and no actions to support it. Just a few examples:
Elevated troop numbers in Afghanistan with a set date for troop withdrawal that turned elastic the next day, according to Defense Secretary Gates.
Major financial/corporate bailout that came with no stipulation for change in the way that our monetary system is structured, as was a goal set out when the recovery act was originally passed.
Renewed promise to repeal "don't ask don't tell" that has no set deadlines or plan of action, just a plea to "cross our fingers" with him that us gays don't get angrier. He did sign into law a federal hate-crimes statute that was attached to a defense spending authorization bill. No irony there.
Also, there has been no genuine effort to overturn DOMA; just more promises (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Briefing-by-White-House-Press-Secretary-Robert-Gibbs-6/17/09) . In fact, remember when the Dept. of Justice argued a case IN FAVOR of DOMA comparing same-sex unions to incestuous ones? Another tardy response/apology oozed from the White House after that one.
I have concerns about health care, but I appreciate that Obama and his administration have actually been prodding congress to have viable discussions about this. One gold star for this! Now get something done.
The Obama administration killed the Yucca Mountain Nuclear Repository Project (which was, admittedly, flawed to hell) and has set forth an empty edict that the nation needs a long term storage plan for dangerous nuclear waste. Right now, the federal government is in violation of a contract between nuclear energy producers and the Department of Energy (DOE) because the DOE has no repository for the waste. Additionally, the Nuclear Power industry is actually being touted as a climate change solution, even though current storage techniques for nuclear waste are only safe on the DECADE scale.
Part of the reasoning cited for giving Mr. Obama the Nobel Prize was for his attitudes towards nuclear non-proliferation. The first uranium mill to be opened in the US in decades is in final approval states in Colorado (pending final permitting by the State of Colorado). His administration passed on comment, deferring comment to the DOE. If you want, think a bit about Uranium chemistry, and the reactants and by-products of Uranium decay reactors, then you will see that increasing the use of nuclear power will increase environmental mining damage (Strip mining, radioactive mine tailings, etc., etc.) and will also increase the stock of potential weapons-grade radioactive isotopes. Nuclear power is counterproductive to non-proliferation and to climate/environmental sustainability.
I could go on, but i hope you see my point. I am frightened and concerned that people are not really paying attention to what is happening with the Obama Administration. Please don't forget that we have a democratic senate, a democratic house, and a democratic white house, though no real legislation has come to pass.
We, as the people who are represented and governed by Obama need to hold him accountable for the actions of his government. I agree that he has an amazing potential for good, but he seems to me to be stuck in too easy of a gear that is causing him to spin his wheels on a steep incline (my apologies or the bicycle analogy). His gear needs to be changed, because it seems to me he is sliding off the mountain right back into the rut the last administration left. Obama promised diplomacy, and I feel his actions surrounding Oslo and Copenhagen are illustrating his international naivete.
I welcome and enjoy all y'alls comments about all this. The discussion helps me to actually construct my thoughts into real ideas. Thanks.
Jamie Ramirez: gotta jump back in. *reminder*: obama is no longer in the house or the senate. he can urge them to make progress, but that doesn't mean they will. he's trying to delegate, rather than micromanage, which is disappointing in some ways because he's so much more intelligent and open-minded that a great number of the people he has to work with.
and to respond to the bit you say about people not really paying attention to obama -- i don't think that's true. i could be wrong, because i can only really speak for myself, but i *think* a lot of people are watching and waiting. i was in elementary school when clinton was elected, but i am curious whether after his first year in office was barely up, everyone jumped all over him for not having fixed everything yet. clinton and obama both had to enter the white house in the middle of long spells of republican rule and policies. so i'd assume they'd both be under similar scrutiny from the people who elected them. now, i'm not attempting to pass judgment, good or bad, on clinton overall. but we all know he balanced the budget, which was great. but how much progress did he make in the first 10 months in office toward that goal? anyone know?
Jamie Ramirez: regarding health care: i don't think that any of the options currently being considered come anywhere CLOSE to qualifying as universal health care. the original spirit of the idea has long been dead. i can't think of one person who is in dire straits medically/financially who the current proposals will actually help. but obama farmed it out to congress, so i blame them for compromising it to death--not obama.
John Zayac: I hope you're right about the attention thing, I could have a skewed view seeing how I mostly interact with college students, the exact population that I feel needs to be really paying attention.
Regarding Bill Clinton: funny you say you were in elementary school Jamie, my very first election I was old enough to participate in was the 1992 election that Clinton won. Man, I'm getting old.
A few examples of Clinton's accomplishments in his first year: He accomplished signing into law an economic recovery bill (to fix Reagan's and Japan-puking Bush's war on the economy). Bill Clinton ACTIVELY sought to increase taxes on the wealthy during his first year. As an interesting side note, the Northridge earthquake of January, 1994 actually boosted the Clinton Administration's economic recovery (at least in California). In his first year, Clinton was also a key player in the signing of the Oslo Accords between Yassir Arafat (a Nobel Peace-Prize Laureate like Mr. Obama) and Israeli prime minister Rabin. The ratification of NAFTA also occurred during Clinton's first year (I know I am opening a potential bomb with this one, feel as you will about free trade). So, yes, Clinton did get stuff done in his first year that was on par with his campaign goals.
With health care, the situation is tricky, and this is why I have given Obama credit for actually getting the two sides to actually sit down and hammer out plans, whether they are universal or not. While I know of nobody who does not believe that access to health care is a fundamental human right, We do not have a tax system that supports the financing of a large gonvernment-run system. Talk to some people that come from countries with state-run healthcare and see how they feel about the bureaucracy. (SJF I know how you feel...). This debate can go on and on, and will, and should.
I would like to throw in a bit about education while I am at it. I am deeply concerned about Obama's threat to withhold federal monies from California public schools if CA does not begin using student performance on standardized tests to evaluate teachers and for determination of teacher salaries. Besides this being a direct attack on academic freedom for instructors, it also changes the emphasis from educating students to develop abstract reasoning skills to instructing them in a concrete "fact" way for a monetary gain for districts, teachers, and the state.
Jamie Ramirez: you don't know *ANYONE* who believes that health care is a privilege, and not a right? i can't tell you how many people i've spoken to over the years who have a very pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps attitude toward this topic, as well as issues of homelessness, drug addiction, and mental illness. in fact, i've met very few people who are willing to see their taxes go up to "subsidize free riders".
btw, this argument "just ask people who live in countries with socialized medicine how much they like it" is lazy. there are obviously two ways to measure the efficacy of health care policies: ask people how much they like it, or look at the actual statistics of how healthy people are. our country is plummeting quickly on the latter, so no matter what you or i or anyone in europe thinks, if they're going to live longer, healthier lives than us, they *ought* to be glad they live there instead of here. and if they wish they lived here, then they don't know what they're wishing for, because i seriously doubt they want the lower life expectancy and higher infant mortality rate that our country boasts.
of course, it's skewed lower because of all the poor people in this country. and, you know, since it's poor people's faults that they're exposed to higher rates of toxic chemicals at home and in the workplace, and since it's also their faults that they get sick as a result, the well-to-do are always ignoring these facts.
if the intersection of poverty, the housing crisis, mental illness & sustainable environments wasn't what i'd studied in school, i might not realize how firmly stuck in the dark ages most of my peers are. it's scary how many are downright hostile toward the impoverished. i think it's because it's scary. they don't want to think about it, and start to feel guilty, so they tell themselves these are bad people who can't possibly have worked hard their whole lives and still just failed. they won't even entertain the thought, oh, wait, that could happen to me.
John Zayac: Jamie, I did not profess to know the answer to the healthcare issue, and for you to call me lazy for suggesting that you talk to people who live in socialized countries with astronomical tax rates and buearacratic health care (do you know many people who are stoked with their HMO in this country?) is flat-out wrong and exceptionally lazy on your part. You state we should look at life expectancy. According to the world population factbook, the average life expectency in the USA is 78.11 years, UK: 79.01 years, Switzerland: 80.85 years, Denmark: 78.3 years. There is not much variation here. I do not get your point about life expectency, and your arguments are sounding a bit Michael Moore-esque stretch the facts and use inconsistent data to illustrate your point.
Why is it wrong to consider quality of care and quality of life issues in this debate? I do not see how the rest of your statement is relevant. I assuming you agree with my stance regarding nuclear energy with your credentials in sustainable environments, no?What about the economy. Has the stimulus package done anything, in your opinion, to help the poor and unemployed in this country? Any views on education? I am trying to exchange views so that we may all learn from one another, and spread our dialogue further. To quote Obama, "I am asking you to believe. Not just in my ability to bring about real change in Washington... I'm asking you to believe in yours" (http://www.barackobama.com). I want change. We are in dire straights in this country and especially in the state of CA.
On a personal note, don't assume that I have no knowledge of poverty, poor health-care coverage, or seemingly insurmountable obstacles to success. My life experiences are very integral to who I am and what I believe today.
Jamie Ramirez: i was calling the argument tired, and the logic lazy. not like you're the first one to say it. i'm calling the point of view itself a lazy one, and that makes me surprised to hear you say it. but i never called you lazy. what kind of lazy person would have this kind of dialogue on their facebook wall? silly.
Jamie Ramirez: oh, and now you're hatin' on michael moore? geez john, you're such a hater! :D
Jamie Ramirez: and i said "longer, healthier" because quality of life (level of health) is just as important as longevity. what's the point of living a long time if you're just suffering? no good. i never meant to imply the opposite, and my point was in a lot of ways just that the grass is always greener somewhere else.
i know they have higher taxes in socialist countries, john. so what? in the end, if there's not enough for everyone to get by, someone's going to suffer. if we split the bill equitably through high taxes, everyone suffers a little bit, instead of building an aristocracy on the backs of an even larger underclass. if there *is* enough for everyone to get by, then it's totally reasonable to think that everyone should be able to. if high taxes are how that is achieved, and your income was only needed for the things above and beyond your basic needs, you wouldn't need as much take-home pay. some people think this is possible with capitalism, but i subscribe to the line of reasoning that as long as corporations have the primary goal of not only being profitable, but continually increasing profit, then this machine is going to run people over along the way.
life expectancy is a tricky beast, though. today's life expectancy only applies to us if the mortality rate doesn't increase. but with all sorts of fatal diseases on the rise, and a growing elderly population, it's got to rise. meanwhile, according to the WHO, cuba's life expectancy (as of 2006) is 78. same as ours. most people point to cuba as an example of a communist state which has failed. but even they're making it to a ripe old age, so michael moore can't be *too* wrong about cuba having good health care. i think when you control for differing stress levels, it may become somewhat skewed. meaning, populations which endure lower stress levels require less medical care, so it might not be the health care system alone which accounts for a country's life expectancy. but i'd sure rather live to a ripe old age without having to undergo a ton of life-saving medical procedures. seems rare in the US. i fully expect to get cancer at some point.
and btw, are you getting snarky with me, john? you're the one who said a few posts back that everyone shouldn't get mad & stuff. i wasn't questioning your credentials at all, or making a personal attack. i think it's that phenomenon where in text form everyone sounds like they're being short with you.
that said, i'll take my own advice and treat your questions as serious ones, and not just as snappy rhetorical questions.
(1) nuclear power: i do not have a strong opinion on this, because i don't know enough about it to have a strong opinion. i have heard and considered both sides, but i don't think i have enough information to come to a conclusion. good thing it's not my job to make that decision. phew. however, the whole concept that it's "clean" is just a matter of looking at it. i agree with you. if there isn't a safe way to store spent fuel, then there isn't a safe way to use nuclear power. but, i also don't think there's a safe way to continue burning fossil fuels at the rate we are using them. does nuclear power scare me? of course it does. but that's my gut speaking, and i'm not stephen colbert. as far as mining goes, yeah, anything that got sequestered into various layers of earth before life for humans was possible here, i think we'd probably be best leaving where it is. but that, too, is just an intuition.
(2) stimulus package: i haven't studied this academically, but from what i've heard on NPR, i think that this, too, is a complex issue that i'm unable to weigh in on. i've heard very compelling arguments that the stimulus wasn't big enough. compelling when i heard them, but i don't remember well enough to explain why. i also don't think that the stimulus package was about the poor. the poor haven't even entered people's consciences yet. that's why everyone keeps talking about the middle class. if it's the middle class that's suffering, people seem to care. personally, i'm convinced socialism and a little bit of old-fashioned human compassion, would be the most effective way to improve quality of life for everyone.
(3) education: where would i even start? until things are more equitable across the board, there will continue to be substandard education in many places. i also think that our methods of evaluating teachers & professors are totally off-base. it doesn't matter how knowledgeable you are on a topic, that doesn't make you good at explaining it to people who are new to it. but although some instructors have the personal integrity to strive toward being great at helping people have the series of "aha!" moments that lead to true comprehension, this is hard to measure, and i think it's largely ignored when measuring the quality of the instructor.
one interesting find for me while i was studying physics at CSULA (and finding the instruction to be lacking, in part because the class size was so large, there wasn't time for us to ask our individual questions and get clarification before we felt lost) is that actual comprehension of the basic principles is very low among beginning physics students who receive the highest marks, even those who will go on to major in it, and even at very esteemed institutions. using students who had passed all their tests with flying colors as the test group, the researchers asked a team of physicists to come up with a very simple set of questions which any first-year student of physics should know, and across the board, the scores were very low. the same test was given to students who maintained high grades through their 3rd year, and that group scored very well. whatever its wider implications, this study points out that how well you score on a test is highly dependent on how well the test is written. so i understand the desire for standardized tests. but those are, of course, fraught with their own problems. so i think tests should carry less weight. i actually really like the idea of doing away with grading. you pass or you fail, and if you fail, you try again. that's how it goes in the real world, and we all have our own strengths and weaknesses, so there shouldn't be so much stigma on having to spend longer learning something than someone else. chances are, the tables are flipped for some other subject or skill set. complicated issue. to quote my friend jill, who quotes the movie _drop dead fred_ a lot, "what are your thoughts?". actually, i bet jill has a lot more useful input on the subject than i do.
my neck hurts very much. i think i've got it cocked to one side or something. thanks, john! :P
Jamie Ramirez: omg, you're probably so sick of my comments at this point, but i want to clarify something: when i said my peers are stuck in the dark ages, i was referring to the people *i* recently attended school with. the people who *don't* think access to healthcare is a fundamental human right.
John Zayac: Jamie, no worries about anything. I'm glad that you engaged me in the discussion about that link. You know it's much easier to not be angry, when you really start to think about issues through discussions with others. It forces you to think about your stance.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
note: john & i are friends, and amy is my wife, but i didn't know any of the other people who commented on this topic. i left out all of the people whose comments didn't directly tie in to this line of discussion, but i left all the comments in the same order they appeared originally. i didn't know that thomas cawson was john's bf until after this whole string of comments came to a close. i was bummed out that he had no response when i called him out for seeming racist and out-of-touch with his pretending not to know how i was using "hater". it seemed very uppity and pretentious of him, and from the very beginning, my only hint of actual annoyance/aggression was toward this thomas guy. of course, john knew all along i wasn't insulting him by calling him a hater. right? well, john suddenly getting a bit snippy came as a surprise to me, but then later i realized i'd gotten snippy with no less than his beau. whoops! but it had to be said. i admit, i might have been a bit more tactful if i'd realized this was john's bf. but based on the comment, i never in a million years would have suspected that john would date him. i think the tone of all of it would have been different if (a) thomas had realized that my tone with john was affectionate and approving (disagreeing with his views in some cases, but approving of his choice to bring up real issues on facebook), and if (b) i had realized that thomas was john's new bf. oh well. john's totally right, though, about how conversations like this allow you to put some of your thoughts into concrete form. so i'm actually glad it took on this twist. although i'm still waiting for thomas to attempt to defend his first comment. hehe...